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Welcome to the Coast to Coast AM Alternative. From Nashville, Tennessee this is Mysterious Matters, for those who dare to think. ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the program our guest this evening is Ian Punnett. And the topic of the night is a black knight belle The murder of Verna Garr Taylor And the kentucky honor code killing they gave her justice. We will be discussing a lot of different topics and not just Ian’s book, but after listening to this program you are interested in reading it but not for the progress bill you can go to mr else matters dot com slash. Black knight, what is easter is matters dot com slash like night were with us was welcome into the program should we all the stuff you’re talking about just before it ships that, and they were well in the reverse this isn’t normal i’m going to be welcoming on two individuals. So people that you’ve probably heard their voices before first goal is welcome in carries do not. So i need to know how to do you a case anymore but that was that was originally started off on top forty radio stations and it is lit over and i use that name on. Find it hard rock and heavy metal radio stations when i hosted morning radio for about twenty years and so i had a good time being in case is a lot easier for people to. To pick up any imput. When i want when i got into talk radio that’s when i slid into the i went back to the my birthday in case is actually my legal first name made by my real name is casey and pilot all where. Yeah you never call me that i was always in case planted and so i dropped planet when i did top forty and then rock and then when i got in to talk i thought. It’s a good step forward to just going back to being who i really am and that’s in pints of i wish i could you in case for you but you have to be either. When playing a song and have to be talking about a jungle about you know that the the. The weather in nashville horrid have to be doing something to bring out the in case part if i don’t even know quite how that would sound probably scare me price care about. Let me try something so something on you to let me tell you in country music is better than rock and roll it is number one in the world, well, see referring to as many that floats around about me confronting the guy who was the program director of w s m at the time it was a super nice guy dude, to agree to come on to one of three kg of nashville from pure rock and roll will slow down, and commercials rock and roll station camera will not nationals rock and roll station and. With the other was ninety seven x the quad cities home of pure rock and roll was that was that was the quad cities and then. The other one was why one-o-seven mom at the ocean county’s hit music connection before that and then. I can’t even remember how the other radio stations but sure so he came in and kevin came on and and he was so fun to just banter back and forth about country music although this is kind of the this country started to get cool again. So in what a lot of ways so the lost that battle because. Country kept stealing licks from rock and especially from the eagles and from discover that whole southern california sound which garth brooks appropriated so well and. And so you know countries that changed during that period and we said goodbye to to kenny and dolly and porter and all the other former big names we brought in the result really during that period in the early nineties country music change forever. I’m gonna tell you right now i’m not a fan of today’s country music because it’s more like rock and roll when the seventies rock and roll in the eighties strip is just like you said the the country music of the past. It’s doesn’t exist anymore numbers you go to record collection for cd’s or whatever others of you are the ones i really like, you know so i have to swallow some of my own words when it comes to like alan jackson good times. That’s a cool breeze got off of the old country vibe to it but it’s also it’s just a fun good boot scooting kind of song so like there’s this week i have a list of about ten country songs i can listen to at any time. I ordered a huge spit take listening to that video especially when us having of randy travis was gay what did a huge spit tech. Let’s think about ready travis marrying his mother is selling his movie was made it was his. What is it was his manager yeah picture and she was significantly older than he was divorced several years ago and then you got remarried and i guess that was last. Right so i can’t remember the conversation but i can pretty much guarantee it was, of noxious and i was probably poking him with a stick trying to get him to to say something on my rocks too much of the internet that was that’s the nature of morning rock radio that’s for sure, so in a lot of people be interested in this how did you get from being a dj of sorts specially here in nashville to hosting. Ace nationally syndicated program not close to close down but there was no if anybody’s interested let. I am grateful i it was a fun period for me i’d love to do a morning rock radio and i did morning radio in one form or another for many years after that but i dropped the music peas and i became sort of a morning talk show host during the week and then i did. On the weekends i was doing more of a straight talk. Can a presentation and what happened was in atlanta i was given the opportunity to fill in for art bell because the company i was working for the time which is jake or communications. They bought later they will become clear channel but decor bought premier premier radio networks which of the time really just had, two shows on it that they wanted and the rest i think they came back to the guy i use all the time but one of the shows i wanted was was definitely art bell which was hot and date he. The story goes that are up until that point whenever he took the show was on seven nights a week. And that’s a lot for anybody to do and are capri recorded one of them and i think that the other six live in that was kinda killing and so, with the entire taking it off he would put on some of his friends and some of them were very good, the hell you rose is a good example of that a veteran broadcaster get a really good radio show maybe a little older than the average listener but, still the radio guy and and some of them weren’t so good and it drove jake or crazy because i thought there was a lot of amateurs so they were looking for people with in the company that. Could host a show like that and not have a big political agenda because almost all of their. All other talk show hosts were really driven by politics and that was never my thing. So that’s how i got an a because i’ve been to college and because i was i think was in grad school at the time already and they thought i might be smart enough to figure out some of these topics that are talks about and they were, challenging and that’s how i got it was that based on okay let me ask you this when our quit don’t know which time this was, and clear radio broad and mike siegel i believe his name was, what’s why didn’t they were actually let me reverse must of do they offer that position to you first ever did never did, it was reported that way though it was funny because dr ge, reported that way and i was like well that’s news to me cuz i already knew mike siegel had the thing i can they really liked his voice, and he was a very professional sounding got a great voice and a cord inserted took that. Piece of the art bell experience the kind of a throw any late night each kind of you know ominous, toned guy and it that they were hoping nothing to continue that but they they had me fill it on. I don’t remember giving talks to me about it honestly i don’t think i was even in dc and should which is funny to me when i saw it pop up on drugs that i can get that use to mean but. It’s funny i can’t print that out and send for years personally was hoping that you were gonna be the main guy that you were gonna take over, because outside of our you’re my favorite host of coast to coast AM what can i say that but i’ll tell you it would have been a mistake on a domestic when of been a mistake because i’m like. It’s for better for worse my conspired are to get back in the game, he was art show i mean you know he was the quarterback he created the league in a way so anybody that was going to be in that chair was gonna be subject to art wanting to come back or not. And i don’t i i stepped aside for him on other occasions as well and then i filled in for him when he left. Without much warning and i did i came back and did that to i was happy to do the way he was the master so it would have been. That would be hard for me to maybe even and i don’t think i think apartment to get back into it anybody would’ve been wise to step aside for our. Let me ask you this that there was another gentleman here in the nashville area he died i guess two or three years ago his name is terry bart did you ever have the opportunity to meet him. Yes we did we he was you know big terry bart was, part of the previous generation of well-known media personalities in nashville and he was definitely on the personality side and his name was citizen honest with. With hosting and it could be radio could be tv he just had that kind of a presentation that he was his accessible and a lot of people in hit a lot of fans. I’m at a time that i was on the air on one of three katie have in the nineties he was a little bit more of a punch line for us, not because he did anything to deserve it my hue but because he’s gotta represented that old or sound, love of a previous broadcasting generation so we would we might throw his name in the air if we were trying to use the name of somebody that was emblematic. Radio or tv of of the past even though he was he was very much a player and, there and well deserved so i mean anybody we made fun of one of three k the fact i was there and it was rock station none of the desert for we were all just being. You know kids in the back row throwing spit wads up a and terry was. Very helpful for me when i was giving it to podcast that were several people who were helpful you, the barts and even to a degree art bell has been helpful and a gentleman by the name of queen of ravens croft is called the podcast answer man, yeah everybody yeah so that’s pretty cool and i will tell you in a teddy bear deserve that he i was are good things about him personal. One thing i do not know about any bars that prior to our bill starting costco stay on the bart was actually doing, a similar show and not paying eighty seven called think it was beyond reason but it just never took off. What is the thing that if you really i mean in a lot of ways and if we’re talking the coast to coast AM and Art Bell i’m sure wouldn’t like to hear me say this but. In a lot of ways Art Bell caught lightning in a bottle he was the right guy at the right. Time do it right show in the right mood at the right time a day and it was just it was perfect in the planets of you burn expression lined up just right, and then, because up until the point you really have been a few shows like that on the overnight that had been attempted something to gone on for years but it’s been a long time and end so it just happen to be a thing at a time when people were becoming board of the, trip mainstream media become. Extremely predictable it still is it in many ways and so coast to coast am came along in this for the insidious way which is just great very subversive and in that it captured that counterculture. Necessity that had been kind of low hanging fruit for a while people wanted it and now you know after within a couple years are doing coast to coast am of course. There’s a million other shows that follow in the same thing a lot of tv product a lot of big budgets at the time it was really hard on all of it, and and he was he deserves credit for that but i think even he would tell you that he knows that were many more people that did it before he did but when it comes to radio or podcast thing. It’s very saturated almost every field what fielder what genre do you think is the un charted territory if there is one who has a really good question so we’re kinda different platforms i think. Audio is still not respected enough and i think the people who are doing the heavy lifting and podcasting like you, i think you are generating a lot of fans i know for a fact, i’ll see bradley told sent me a message saying when you gonna do his tricks matters soho, either you have a lot of friends there and it is just the kind of lifestyle media that people need, that you can pick it up you can put it down if it’s what you want it it is doing what netflix is doing to television podcast and doing a lot witches i’ve got thirty five minutes to drive from point a to point b all good that’s my chance to hear my favorite show, and if so much different than turning on a turn key radio station which runs like, when was like a public utility right like a faucet you turn on radio. Broadcast radio and it’s like turning on the faucet water comes out clean your glass you drink it you turn off the faucet that’s it and in podcasting its it’s really not that way at all its its like having a microwave dinner you take it to work, you got your brake popping in you enjoy it, get back to work it lives in your schedule and some more and more anything that comes along will still have to fit that, and that kind of that that would change forever and i think that you define easier platforms for people to be able to do that with, definitely one thing i’ve been hearing from a lot of people is that they prefer listening to my program now vs. Coast to coast am for one reason or another, will that be because cuz to coast am is now more corporate control vs the time when art bell was really popular in the nineties but remember it’s these people forget, that was a very brief period of time when art wasn’t quote unquote corporately controlled i’m in the corporation jake or came in in. Ninety six or seven so that wasn’t that long into the history before that, are getting on the show even before that to somebody else owned and an inmate in the sense that he would he didn’t pay for the satellite time it was another guy was putting the next down i can make masters i can’t remember same, i’m, and he was the one who can order before then i don’t think anybody interferes with coast to coast i don’t think has it it seems like it it might maybe to summer some people, like it now more than they did then or less now than they did it that will that will go and come and go depending on who you speak, but it really doesn’t have nobody people used to say that to me all the time oh you probably got your memo today about your spouse stating i think of, i wish i was getting some show prep something nice if somebody would do it for me but it never happened that way ever and i can never. I never heard from anybody other than that my producers and they might tell me yeah i wouldn’t do that again or, yeah i do it again who cares nobody was but we were all in charge and i would get. I get in trouble for some of the bumpers i would play with or off the script with this but we’ve been pirates, so we would just in a weird place and having health tuner something is a bumper and and we were just laughing, me and seriously off the air just this great but i knew i’d hear about it on monday but was never from that corporation that was always just whoever my boss was at the time, you know there’s perm us since i know nothing about the corporation bill have anything to do with the surprise me started actually. Invite george noory or anybody coast coast ever heard from anybody cartridge of, i was hard time or two on george but as i began doing my own show begin to realize that nothing is perfect it’s easy to be an armchair host of you will. And you’re always saying to use the walker do better you should do better he’s doing us by a job at whatever but until you’re actually in front of the microphone. You don’t have a single clue as to what goes on behind the microphone. Add jane is a you know say what you like and everybody steve you know everything we do what we’re doing right now. Everything we do is a trade off we make a decision we go we decide this is the direction we’re gonna go and let us a policy of this works, and sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t everything and radio was a trade-off and the everybody’s a program director everybody it and then they have that right to decide that for themselves but i would still stack up. George noise opening twenty minutes i love, he’s open twenty i love the way he goes right into a new story she’s got four callers lined up he’s got news makers to comment he’s got people to reflect i just love that trunk but it is an honor i love following that too because i know, as a listener that’s that’s a high to in time because you get a lot for that refer to turn my thing and i wish i could be of the caliber of george nori, i use to say george nori sucked or whatever but she as a broadcaster as a podcast or you look at someone like that and then you listen to yourself and, i just wonder will i ever reach that tell her we are to reach the caliber of the knee and pointed to an art bell, we should all sucks so much know that is true we should all suck so that is to be george norrie i mean it it it is it is on direction it’s his own show now but when you think about it. In two thousand eighteen george children do not show for fifteen years are only did it for ten. Drop the mike me and that’s the true meaning of itself and it’s not fifteen years because they couldn’t find somebody else in fifteen years because it was working and lots of people like the show and is it the same. No they wouldn’t be the same without, and somebody that would be plusses and minuses to everybody’s hosting so i’m i’m glad to hear your reformed on that because i am the you know it’s tough to follow legend in our is definitely that, but it, sometimes people can’t remember things better than that the way they really were to out on that because they don’t remember me better than i actually was i got nothing so i calling, i can only nostalgia creating a halo effect broke my past material, yes we’re about to get into your book walk one of the question for you and that is your teenager viewer maybe not turn twenty one podcasting was picking up would you still get into broadcasting, would you be podcasters, yes really interesting question so i tell people all the time maybe this was a question maybe you won’t i went to high school that had a radio station, so i started broadcasting was fourteen if i hadn’t had that i would have done and i definitely don’t podcast, i got to be on the air bed fourteen i got to have a weekly show i got to find out how terrible i was in my first professional job right after i graduated high school, don’t ask me why and i was a professional broadcasters starting and. That was my summer job between high school and college and it was awful so yes, i would have done i would have gone anywhere and done anything that would have allowed me to explore that i just have the lock out and find some people that were sweet enough to pay me for it so, yeah that’s what i’m doing i tell people all the time when they ask this of you had really to get and radio and i say are you podcasting like no one even radio and like, why are you letting you standing on the corner of hollywood and vine waiting to be discovered don’t start, tomorrow you can podcast and then come back to me and tell me what do you still feel like doing it because as you know it’s not your first podcast is not even your fits like your fiftieth that’s when you know with the really have inside you or not, use radio every day is is lather rinse repeat everyday it is shampooing, everyday any there just got up your allowed to skip and that’s where you can you have to build an audience by repetition and by always presenting new material and that’s what podcasting allows you to do, and people that think that radio is some different experience it’s not exactly the same thing except you’re much more in control of your own destiny, then i think you would be if you were going to some small radio station somewhere you have a lot more rules and a lot of other people telling you what to do most certainly. And what is in german and has a book out a new book. The name of the black knight for the bluegrass pale the murder burner car taylor and the kentucky order cold killing that gave her justice. In the very beginning of your block you discuss what was it a lady in blue that was hunting a hotel in seattle hotel in downtown downtown level, at the hotel lucile bach is now called the sealed box hilton, and the time when it was built it was it’s really and it is still an amazing hotel of new ones every still it’s still one of most beautiful the wraps killer which is in the basement is was built, just was like inch for inch and a famous bavarian club it, every where you go in the silver pockets to the special corners and it was a marvelous hotels the finest hotel for states around when it was built and the in nineteen thirty six. A woman went down the elevator shaft to her daft. And the the story at the time it link the former lieutenant governor of kentucky, to her gas and it the governor’s name was lieutenant general henry aged and hard. And he was a he was the sitting engine general of the kentucky national guard he was a drinker she was belligerent, she was not considered a, could a person later on he would be often referred to as the most hated man in kentucky he was known for being sexually involved in the horror that was what’s called bloody harlan, in harlan county kentucky and breaking up a labor strike in newport kentucky which is closer to cincinnati and in the most. Excessive ways completely unnecessary violence that he seen like he felt like he had a right to do and. And that’s why if it’s his demeanor that he would be seen that night in the hotel when the woman went down the elevator shaft and he was known to frequent brothels. So that part isn’t so surprising that the sad part being that. If it’s true that her spirit still haunts the hotel he gets linked to that night that she was very likely wearing a blue slip when somebody, forced her between the safety gates of the elevators remember elevators back then didn’t really have opening and closing doors i just had this gate that would lock and and somebody pried it open. The you know, the police could never identify it as being denmark but later on they came back to making it seem as though definitely he had done it and then she went down the elevator shaft it very slow death, after shit scanning terrible engine and she still seeing. Around the hallways of the cell block hotel and i recount several of the encounters there at the beginning of the book of black night for the blue grass spell it sets the tone, for what happened to my grandmother’s first cousin which is very guard taylor and a very notorious murder case. In the state of kentucky which is what this true crime book is about. What was the actual connection between the person who fell down the elevator shaft and your grandmother’s first cousin, so here’s your stinky so the lady in blue is often seen in and around the elevators and under certain rooms. That she has been seen in in the reflection of the mirror it is certainly. If we accept the notion of ghosts is being people who have to accept their demise and that they are they’re trapped somewhere in some time dimension if that’s true then she would seem to be. Pretty much of anarchy type of that because her her death was brought about the very likely by this guy lieutenant general henry down hard who then shortly thereafter. Started dating. A forty year old widow they burn a gar taylor she lives in la grange kentucky downhearted just moved out that way and if he had bought a gentleman farm after, being retired from politics i say that meaning he didn’t quit he just couldn’t get elected anything anymore and he brought, friends that were willing to give job so he had he had been decided to get of gentlemens farm where he would, we out the the fields to somebody else and he started calling on burner guard taylor. Who wasn’t independently wealthy woman is a wealthy in the context of, i the depression she own your own business shoulder on house she on a car, she had a phone in the house she had two daughters twenty and seventeen at the time and it, she had not dated at all since the death of her husband about five years earlier she is very much in love with with barkley taylor bark is is he was known and, after she decided she would not. Except then hearts marriage proposal the night she tried to give him back the ring that he had given her to think it over with that night, she was found dead in one shot from then hearts forty five. Revolvers service revolver nineteen seventeen. The web a particular gun that was issued to him when he served in world war one and one bullet. Here’s to hard and hit the other side and he claim that hard claimed it was suicide. Alright that would have meant because when they found her body she was clutching her gloves in her left hand that she would have had to have shot herself through her left side on an upward trajectory. Using her right hand it doesn’t make any sense it’s not even physically possible i have a replica of the gun and the and then, he was put on trial for that because people just didn’t except his explanation and after that was a hung jury this kids to the answer of your question and the, after there was a hung jury and they decided they were gonna retry him jefferson county which is where local is decided to resurrect the case of the lady in blue. And they decided to let the time there was a process where you could sue somebody for murder and he was gonna be sued. For the death of the woman that went down the elevator shaft. And if so that case comes back to him later on after people were so outraged that he got a hung jury in his. Murder case against my grandmother’s first cousin then jefferson county came back and added another charge an attempt to get him for that one too but he wouldn’t live long enough to be tried for for either one a second time. Was doing hard targeting certain types of women that you know such as particularly windows today but actually both were widows interestingly enough the past two was to. Although she already divorced her husband she was in the process of divorcing him he had been killed in a mysterious car accident a couple weeks before her death but, was it because they’re both widows i think part of it is probably because it was the depression and and he was a narcissistic sociopath. The been a couple of former coast to coast guests that i turn to for advice on this book and kathryn rams lose one of them forensic psychologist great writer and in a prolific writer of books about, this type of serial killer behavior and. And then i also turned to a friend dr les carter been coast to coast a couple of times with me who is an expert on narcissus sociopath personalities and and he. Label dropped am sorry come label he labeled and hard exactly that narcissus sociopath personality, and he said in this part was that really compelling part that that they prey on people women especially they do very well because they come on really big as a here’s the depression, he comes on very boisterous lee sf flamboyant really very successful any has a way of, of using that overcome people in to get women especially probably, to give in to his will and he thought i think he targeted verna guard taylor thinking she was a widow she’s very attractive. And he be able to have her way with. Have his way with her sorry and and she wouldn’t go along with it and i think that’s a big part of the reason why she died that night is. The medical examiner said there was evidence of sexual assault and i think she rejected him and i don’t think he took that well. He didn’t comes across as the type of person who either he will get his way or if he doesn’t get his way he’s gonna have. A huge print. Kind of like donald trump to you just briefly mentioned then back track meets you didn’t he slipped out but it’s interesting how they they do share it especially as politicians perhaps you know they share a lot of, traits and i do i will make this point when i was writing about that hard back in as. Putting some of the finishing touches on the book was right about the time that trump. Somewhat surprisingly said i could shoot anybody on the street i can shoot somebody in the face whenever he said i should somebody dead on fifth avenue and i wouldn’t lose any votes. And that’s so much like the way down hard thought to. And they just idea of i have the entitlement i’m so popular look at what i can do and that’s kinda how narcissistic sociopaths think no idea was, trying to start a big political fight here but that was interesting it’s also interesting to note that o j simpson. When he was arrested and they first said will we what am i being accused of the same for the death of nicole brown simpson. And i quote i couldn’t have killed her i loved her too much that is exactly what dad heart said. When they found vergara taylor’s body outside of lagrange kentucky in a ditch shot once through the heart and get hard. Everybody is looking down hard and he said i could not have done that i love her too much you know i did which is such a bizarre thing to say. Alright but that was that began the investigation he thought. All you had to do is former lieutenant governor and general to say i didn’t do it and nobody would investigate but they did and there is plenty of evidence that he did killer and that’s why they have a trial, thing is when a person says they love somebody too much to kill them. But usually means that i love them too much and they were leaving me so i had to do something because i wasn’t gonna lose them but it says to me. Yeah it’s very and of course the narcissus sociopathic personality is very fragile because they they have to work very hard at maintaining a self-image and anything that pierce is that self image, that is a real threat and so being being dumped being rejected. Being locked and in that case i think of the night which is the court thing and everything. In the book of black night for the bluegrass spell kind of revolves around that night i think that night she was gonna tell her brother’s. And doc roy and jack shoes gonna tell her brothers the den heart had attempted to sexually assault her. And i think he hated that idea that that knowledge would survive the night. And i think that’s part of why he killed her to was to prevent her from getting that story out and he’s right i think he had a lot of the year if. If doc and roy and jack knew about the assault on burn it wouldn’t have gone well, so all these pieces of information all these pieces of the puzzle, they are the catalyst to murder is the often are right now is this true that night in nineteen thirty six as it is in two thousand sixteen we have celebrated in the darkest way possible the eightieth anniversary of that. I literally for her on on the exact spot where her body was found almost to the hour he was killed. And that’s what to me that’s part of what makes this book so special is this is family. And the story is never been told right up until now it’s not a parlor game do some people look at it is one of the oldest. Most disgusting murder stories in kentucky but it’s not. If this is some bbc production right this isn’t me this isn’t mrs marple this is this is real and it affected generations of that family, well i just bought the story had to be told correctly once and for all it is your family you’ve been listening to the story for, many years i guess ever since your child right yeah i will like to dad saying the garside which was. Written about this tragedy it was performed on the on the stage of the old ryman auditorium not too far from you over there just off. Right stuff second apple quit okay and what’s your where’s the ryman auditorium sadly can’t remember the address and how to know when remember that is in a gallon. It but there downtown nashville it is it’s. They they saying the guard balance on the stage of the grand ole opry and it was about this this night hd if he hit you never can i sing a little bit for you sure go ahead so, it’s instinct is to do bluegrass tune of jesse james. Which is great valid but it was re written to reflect the story of what happened to to verna and go something like this. Oh the harvest moon was shining the streets of shelbyville when general henry dan hartman is faye. For the guard was was waiting and they was on to shoot to kill and death in general henry had a d. Four pretty burn a gar wasn’t laying in her grave in la grange just sixteen miles away. And folks from miles around say the general shattered because she wouldn’t let him have his way. And they goes on from there to talk about that night. And in it was it’s still hard for the family but we used to sing it all the time because because it means standing up for can. You know even when you put your own life at risk which is what her brothers did later on when can are continue to be a threat. And if i remember reading a book, there were pieces of evidence left at the crime scene that didn’t heart claimed that yes yes something similar but that individual piece was not his even though it wasn’t exactly like something he had been the owner of is that right. Yeah there’s a couple things like that that should falls in the category heat he had he hired. A dream team of lawyers and this is all of it so if you see again the perils of the oj simpson case you know hearing was very big personality he was well known in the media, i am and he was able to assemble some of the the best known. Legal minds designed to obfuscate a jury to to to to force, the state prosecutors to do their job which is to present the evidence that convict somebody be under reasonable doubt it can claim for that i mean that the state is obligated. But they they also had a way of a willie put get hard up on the stand he would deny anything. And he would just tell he perjured himself complete he we know he perjured himself because even in the lawyers owned note switch i found, thanks to those in thanks to fill some historical society in in wall will the lawyers notes are preserved for this case. And they know that he already told to or three different versions of that night and he would shake his story depending on what was being asked when he would completely deny anything so even that part i told you about. When he said that he would not when it was first passed in the. It went good this is very she’s in the very first time that somebody symbol of or is missing he spoke about her in the past tense. He said. She was the finest woman i ever knew she knew she was dead everybody else is like what we gotta go finder oh yes very sad she was the finest women i ever knew. Yeah i’m and then like every five or six people heard him say that. And later on he was on trial he completely denied that part of what you’re referring to are things like you know his keys of flashlight. Other things were found further up the road from where he was. And yeah the woods tonight you’d say no homo no that didn’t happen. And and most importantly was the presence of a what was called a pistol gun and it was a pen pistol. And this pen pistol gun was could only fire one shot and it and that was part of what. Is wrapped up into the story that night only it’s complicated to explain but i think people enjoy reading about it and he at any other time in his life. We talk about how we always wherever he went he always brought one with him you know this one shot pen pistol that he would bring with him. Any where we went except that night would you to have it with him that night and that’s yet when everybody heard. Show all leave that to the people who read the book but i think it’s part of what makes the story so interesting is he was wiley he was clever and he knew he had to cover his tracks, do you also think that’s a characteristic of a narcissistic psychopath, that they’re going to deny everything that they will go well that could be recorded say something and then the next day did not ever saying it because we know for a fact. The president elect has also been exactly the same way, well not so again not making a political thing but it’s it’s very consistent aspect of some people’s personalities that truth is just expedient, truth is what you decided is that day that’s true for a lot of politicians right mean we they’re they’re caught on tape saying something exactly, there’s only one possible way to interpret what they’re saying and then they say no completely or, they say i never said that and then they play the tape and then they turn into a different conversation of i can’t believe you’re playing at a time like this that in the bill bundle do anything but to admit that they been busted, and and i think that’s definitely the case of of den r truth was expedient, get it he is the center of the merry go round and all the rest of us are just carved wooden horses. We don’t really matter he’s all that mattered then. And that’s why i think he killed once he killed twice and i think when burners brothers. Denied him the opportunity to perjured himself a second time as we like to say in the family i think he would have murdered third time to he certainly wasn’t gonna learn that lesson he kept getting away with it. During research for bike night for the blue dress but i know you just mention the heat might have killed third time if you were not stopped, but did you find any evidence that he might have committed all the murders that was never pointed to him. Okay so there’s that i think this is a great question is i. I could not find any proof of what i found was and i think that’s very consistent is perhaps the ramp up to where we were and if we we go back to discussing where he was involved in these. In the strike breaking efforts in harlan county and then up in newport in kentucky and he came in and seemingly really enjoying the notion of riding up on his horse. Behind it as somebody who’s a striker and hitting them over the head really hard with the bottom of his revolver that he he talk, pleasure it would seem in the excessive force, that he was using in these communities while at the same time they serve the political and economic interests of of a powerful few and so he was that’s why i picked up the nicknames the most hated man in kentucky. Because the common people didn’t stand a chance against this guy he didn’t he can do anything with impunity he had all of the, political and economic back and and so we can take some is hard to imagine in new port. Kentucky thanks wool they had these the kentucky national guard brought and headaches they were they were wrapping people over the head they work they were crushing skulls at the drop of a hat. And so i think that’s i think that’s the beginning of the i can do anything. I’m in this powerful welcome it i am and i think, eventually what led him to push a woman down an elevator and an to kill my my grandmother’s first cousin burner i think it was all tied in that to that that that the way that, where is a social path, social pathology works usually start small with a animals right there was talk about that and then it starts working up to bonneville people and i think that’s exactly what happened. What was it that you on the road to now only research. But you also write a bike night for the black blue grass burial i mean you just talk to stay indoors i mean you been coast to coast down you’ve been, and broadcasting for so long so why was now the right time we’ve always been interested in justice. Buy first book how to pray when your pissed it god was focused on divine justice. I really wasn’t i but i think it’s fair for people to demand and have their voice heard which ties into my love of communication and, and doing talk radio and it’s giving alternative voices a chance to be heard and that was that was very much behind the, the theology of how to pray with your pasted god is helping people find that voice true crime something i’ve been studying since i went to get my phd and i would have been very interested in it because it is also an organ, four people who are, voiceless victims and true crime has always been a way to tell the story of people who have been murdered and why they matter and help get justice from the grave, and it was very should from that standpoint in the more i started to study it the more i thought about perhaps writing. A true crime book and. That let me disabled water what about the true crime that happened in my family what will start there i heard the story my whole life my mother and collected stories, relating tomorrow for a very long time so i had a bit of a head start and then by coincidence bob they they had they had found. The transcripts for these trials related to bring a car they found in the trash can for the first time in seventy nine years. They found the words they were turned over to fills and historical society from the from the berry family in henry county you had it in the basement. So it said this needs to be written it needs to be written right and i need to be written from the standpoint that is verna a voice which is what i did that’s why i didn’t write it is as definitive history i wrote it is true crime to released for. For those of us who may not know what exactly is true crime is that journalism is it fiction is it what is it you use you can hit it’s journalism. In it per se it’s the to non-fiction narrative told, with the story telling techniques of fiction so true crime should never be fiction it isn’t fiction properly true crime are are real stories, usually a murder but they don’t have to be in and their non fiction murder narratives that are. Cold in a way that we usually tell a fictional story so that’s not journalism per se because journalism. What’s the most important facts up. Top right with the inverted pyramid of importance and then so it’s always the who what where why and how it right out of the box and you and then the for the going to the story the more detail you get your gradually other way around. It gives you great detail and background and we start to learn about the people long before we see we really understand what happened were introduced to hold of the world and and that’s the, that’s the way that fictional stories are told me he would never start not imagine if you had jobs. The movie her brother fax a front first ten minutes of it when watch the movie right so that’s that’s what your crime is like it it takes its time with the story and it’s also it has an element of parable. To what and i certainly doesn’t in the case of a black night for the bluegrass spell is. It maintains a moral position it attempts to explain a an important aspect of, who we are as people is what allows the the dad to pass along important lessons to the living and it’s not what journalism is supposed to do and it doesn’t but true crime does it and does it very well, when i was reading your book as i get more in depth with especially with you in heart you know as a comic book fan i just kept seeing him as a huge super villain, yeah that the way you were in visiting him as he was writing about those that he was just a huge you could have been a super villain in a comic book well this alexis loose or kinda feel to it doesn’t. Yeah i even have looks like black fluid for the shaved head, in the end he was he was larger than life and and that’s that’s part of what went over that that rather unsophisticated jury that and the fact that in that first jury. They were they were show dependent. That the prosecution was so dependent on the crime science which was two knew it was too early in the development of prime sites in a, it completely confused the jury was a mistake i think on the part of the prosecutors to crutch so much on the crime science but, yeah so it in there was it there’s an aspect to that they they the jury heat up, he is larger than life persona which definitely has a ton of comic book feel to it for a burn a gar taylor know her brothers took care of the situation, what was there also another individual and her life that could have been seen as a hero of sorts that at one time or another step down to. Trying to keep her from being involved with the heart, well they were they were well i’ll tell you from one person who tried to stop the relationship was my grandfather and he was a former. Police detective and local mike my brother had some trouble so he was kind of a former a lot of things but he was a former police detective and at one point, in genesis family came to my grandfather and and ask him look we’re hearing a lot of stories about this guy down hard we don’t think he’s treating burning particularly well but she seems to like him, what do you think can you tell us the real story and he investigated and are using his channel’s and he came back and he he told the family. No tell her to get away from him he’s a foul ball, me and i think unfortunately that’s probably part of what led to her break up with that hard, that night was an attempt to get away from him she thought she do it publicly in a place where was gonna be safe and some place where he can, if you got is mad on that that should be able to just kinda sweet talk him out of it she’s a good southern woman and she was she was gonna try and. You know what is hand and just say you was gonna be okay and and adjust it didn’t work. And and so there were people that that saw the writing on the wall and receiving some of the women that worked in the laundry or worried about it and then there was another individual. Who unfortunately got broken into it in the trial in so much of what ends up becoming part of the legend of this this murder in the state of kentucky in involves things that the defense made up. And they mad they kinda made up this whole relationship with this guy named chester will fuck and and jesse was just. He was implicated in the story he didn’t do anything but it sure made it if your added to the intrigue that the defense needed to try to convince the jury that this couldn’t of been done are what was that last name, well fuck you all and and full of well okay and what’s interesting about chester will forgive he was completely innocent i don’t even know i’m gonna have, part of me thinks maybe rebel like the asperger’s spectrum because easy won’t look people in the eye doesn’t like to talk to them like that conversations but he just adored her and he was your driver. Leaking from where the wealthiest people in town and i only tell you this because it has this great historical interest his first cousin was jw griffith and. Bring the nation in griffith was from just outside la grange and and and so did we griffith came to the murder trial. I have dr troy in jack and did not griffith wanted to make a movie about the verna story. And that was nineteen thirty seven and the family said thank you but no thank you, and and that was it he never made another movie again died along the way it will always after that, the reason why i was asking you to repeat the last name cuz i was gonna try and attempt it, but after you were those like you know what i’m on and it cuz i just know what this month so their knees as i call it, you wasn’t read it all depends where you’re from so you, when i lived in nashville i learned that lot of people in nashville say nashville or even, even stress the real part a little bit nashville but people outside of nashville off and swallow the pill and was national. And so the same day what part of fl you know and everything all. And and so it kinda depends on where you were in your southern accent you could always tell where they were in relationship to the city same thing about local my mom would never let me and we were never allowed ever say louisville so we, going to my god she with stepan rp we seven swords and had to be local and they’re still debate in the city of lowell is exactly how you perhaps of six mph depending on who you only remember your time here in tennessee but there’s no, play it and that you can either print out of a natural lafayette is lafayette i’ll i had to learn all sorts of, pronunciation so i had to get used to that the mondrian and couple other things later on the island but no matter where i was there was always something that was being pronounce defintely. And yeah i was just thinking about that the other day cuz it still looks okay it george, but lafayette in the end so yeah there was told i love my i wouldn’t do i remember i still keep in touch with my old partner the duke and. One of three k f and do can i still chat time i just texted him a little while ago and and i i i still have the only tattoo on my body says go falls and the. I just you know i think actually one of your former partner’s in nashville is now the voice for the tennessee titans radio right that’s the duke owner, yeah so yeah so might as we just called the do the the thin white duke of news he. Mike is yes still with the titans and great guy i love working with him those are great times he’s very funny lets talk about little bit about how to pray to when your pissed god when you first wrote that was it about your issue with tendinitis. Oh yeah no although it certainly you know the the tonight is peace comes into it in the sense that, i am more than anything else that’s what was keeping me up at night so i decided i must do something with my time, so i thought might as well right and and since i couldn’t sleep because of this ringing in my head i still it goes on to this day and it it will never get better i can only change. The circumstances a little bit and that that that has definitely improved now it might that was experience was driven by going back to seminary and being ordained and working a lot with people in hospitals who were. Just a bad way and they just they they i heard so many kinds of people saying don’t even bother chaplin come in here i can pray i’m just so pissed at god right now and i thought well that’s not the way to do it. Way to do it is to take those pissed off prayers right to god mean who we think we are full and. If we believe and omniscient god do we think god doesn’t know that we were feeling so you might as well get it out of your system and certainly the bible believing that so many the prayers in the bible are very angry, and that’s what i that’s what i did i wrote the book from then it’s gonna be part of a trilogy i think i’m already looking at my next book which is about. I’ve been crying that was committed on line and almost a kind of cyber murder and i think so. I think that’s how i’m going to wrap up my my justice trilogy a book about divine justice a book about earthly justice and the book about cyber justice and interesting interesting. Let me take a look here in just thinking i’m looking to the pages of my mind a little slow at doing that sometimes a. By the pigs my mind at all look like a coloring book or something pathetic that’s a me, i know you said it wasn’t about anything with you but have you ever been pissed off at god and and you just couldn’t find the time to pray but you finally. Buried yourself into your believes and want to god what should i think i think there two of the same and i i think that that’s what the psalms tell us. Is that so many of the songs are very angry all of the prayers and how to pray when your pissed connor based on sal’s. And that these two prac at tori solve the the angry songs in the bible. And these are people who really believe that god’s not doing god’s job. And that’s why you know the prayers are so like he got get with it what’s happening here. I think there were times then very specifically when my oldest brother was very close to dash. And i am a very disorienting i still do i can think about it and not cry and because she was such she was so good to me. But i just couldn’t imagine. How that was in any way just so you know i was just some no pun college kid my brother in done good things he was already he was already. He already proved himself and how can something so bad like a kind of cancer. Get to him and why was i spared that it’s didn’t make any sense. And so that’s really where i learned early on that i just had to pray through that. I just had to always if i really believed and i had a dialogue with god then. I was gonna have a fake one and i just i was there are times i just ate screen right up to the heavens in and ask why and i don’t know i was gonna answer but i think that’s what all the should do there’s never a time. When we can’t take what we’re really thinking about and and put it out there in prayer so true so true. And you know x to get us quite often where to my wife and i want to rooms to go. Pick up some furniture and i got into a discussion about what do an individual is me. Hello a person could be a christian and still believe in the paranormal help those two things coincide what do you think. Oh it is because what is paranormal about the bible of in there so many really cool things that happen, in the spiral stories things that we don’t even talk about being we could sue go it easy heals all the wheel and whatever but there’s tons of things word it really it’s the story in the bible of people grappling with, things they don’t understand and in however we look at that would disable, its stories of people who are trying to understand the relationship with god how does the universe work what’s the relationship with the evil and i think these are the core questions it still plague us today i just think the difference is i don’t, build a belief system around the paranormal the paranormal out. You know i’ve always said this that there’s things that i believe in that i put my faith in and there’s things i’ll think about. And i’ll think about a lot of stuff i have no fear of thinking about things but. I reserve a space a very small space for the things that i believe in the things i put my faith in and the rest. The world and the rest of any subject that people bring up the stuff to think about i’m watching this netflix series right now on the history of hip hop and, i’m fascinated it’s like i never knew any of this writing some of it, the stuff that are broken through to mainstream culture but that’s what time i love learning and finding out completely different experiences that, other people are having and on top of that i saw you of once and it made a big impression on me an invite. All you see is a sauna i can tell you i believe that aliens are here to look after us i hope doesn’t change hype the ali g but it. I’ll never forget when i noise and i wasn’t if you know i don’t drink so i know i wasn’t drunk and i don’t take drugs so whatever it was it was rio is is really weird, there’s another thing i wanted to go with you out of always wondered about this especially as i’ve been doing the show head on gentlemen like, dr ahmed does laundry and he works to be on very soon. Call a theoretical physicist don’t have you ever heard of him or not it states it and she is named and but yeah i haven’t for hearing carl coleman and some other individuals and they’ve spoken about hell. Hello world around us even dr mitchell cuckoo. But nothing its physical we are holographic illusion everything around us is made up of nothing but pure energy what is your belief in that for me if it’s true then life is just a mess educational institution for souls. And we are here to learn whatever is before you reach that next level but i think these are things which year i when i would tell you is that. Let’s hold everything in tension with something else we never have to clean just one pole so. To your point when i was in college and some people may object of this characterization so let me apologize way up front i’m not. I’m not impersonating somebody to mock them or. Particular ethnic group but i can’t tell the story without trying to recapture the way this guy said that i had physics. With a professor who had written the the the section on particle physics. In the encyclopaedia britannica very smart guy is from south korea. And he would get very animated whenever he would talk about matter and it was never. An issue of trying to make it sound like we didn’t matter but rather how tight are we with the rest of the world and what he would say and say and just the way he said it is you would say everything away. No way you wave i’m wave this table wave at me. And i’ve never forgotten that is exactly what away tree window away everything away. And and that’s one way to look at it its particles and waves so do we just think of it that way or do we think may be. This is part of what we in a way we’ve always sensed is that we’re all connected. And we all we all we are all part of the same substance in a way. And we can think that i think and a very dividing way we should we share a soul, and it doesn’t mean that the table has sold but it just means that that we we exist in life for a period of time and we can do with the energy that were given. Only so much rabbis a. Everybody is going to be a role model the only thing we have to say about it is weather going to be a positive one. Or a negative i say i’m away you with everyone wave let’s be good waves, let’s be waves for good about a wave what’s the show you’re totally on your podcast the title author during the show sometimes it’s very difficult because, this time of year out of issues like have discussed before with you and on the show but also have tmj and sometimes module just completely what’s up this happen when i was like, nineteen years old i was driving around where i was working and a room in a plant it, i think i was at midnight i was gonna load up the truck and go around the very back of the building they were there some parks whatever. Having a party my window was rolled down and one of them just punch me right to my car window now luckily it was roll down always, ight what would happen as soon as i was part of the salt nothing but i mean this was midnight were talking about us a question like, bright white light that also and ever since then i’ve had trouble with my jaw, but water love doing the show i love having own individual such as yourself regardless of how much trouble is causing me and you know those having ten and out at your dealt with that for years before you decided enough was enough. Well i got a doctors told me it’s how they are you can you level him for the behind the radio and i said yup they said good because if you keep going you’ll be deaf and when. The one that sings that was entered for me but in that in that same way. That you’re talking about there think about that how many people in the us so i hate the discomfort of that thought for you and how. Finding that must feel but it should also be reminder to all of us that we should never take for granted our ability to speak. And to eat and do that this still is a miracle how our bodies are formed and the fact that we can use our mouths twelve express ourselves. Maybe sometimes we should all be more mindful of the words we use in the time we talk, and from there goes back to help to pray when your pissed off it got me sometimes i get so pissed off that, you know my joe’s as checkers ensure i could go to the hospital i go get surgery or whatever but most of the meals i get are great some people say hey you can’t pronounce this right. No shit sherlock you at me really is the back emails no shit sherlock that. Hey you in the unit with dr i was really impressed by that i got one year whatever it but that’s good you can’t it’s trying trying to be able to take us a shot at that so yeah that is the funny thing and, and i think that’s kind the beauty about in a way about doing radio for as long as i did is us us can learn to be a little bit bulletproof. People with the same sort of bullying that goes on and have a casual basis of the way people mock each other. Take your best shot i don’t know i really i get in trouble my facebook page because i just people trying shame me for one thing or another and off my kinda just look at them to think that’s ridiculous and do that must work on somebody cuz you, taught yourself to do it but it sure as hell doesn’t work on me so you know it’s a big internet you’ll find somebody else will fall for that but not here and how you get in trouble on your twitter account have been noticing, yeah, and how to care about that either if it just so that it is not for me this is a place to express myself and i feel like saying something on twitter or facebook. I don’t ask for somebody else permission i’m not putting it up for a vote and if you don’t like it, fifty to unfriend me i don’t care i’m not here to try and keep if i tripped we if anybody any of us did that, anybody tries to live by that rule trying to be popular with everybody oh my god you talk about the sickness drive you nuts, there’s certain what is your next again and what is in german hands book. Is it like not the bluegrass bell the murder of burning car taylor and the kentucky on a cold, chilling like a verb justice and that’s a really long title lol the subtitles are there just because. Sometimes people don’t get enough from the title so that we, what is your publisher things the title is really just black knight to the bluegrass bell but we put a couple other words of there so people could follow along plus it makes those photos on the cover make more sense you know which are cool cover photos and if anybody wants it. Every it’s time for the holidays and the do ordered for somebody i think the fastest way now is to go through i’m trying to save myself some twitter or facebook responses if you don’t mind and had to go directly through the publisher, there are a lot of book stores and couldn’t all the barnes and noble locations in kentucky have it on displays maybe north tennessee but i don’t know that and. And then, on line barnes and noble dot com was selling out pretty regularly amazon was selling out pretty regularly as i think the fastest way is just get it through claim press dot com and they get it they get the books up pretty quickly and it if it’s, close to christmas and people want to get it to somebody for christmas present they can do express and you can get in there caution leicester but it’s good, mr nails yes i know you been doing since i earnings are you done with that now are you still doing it, what side what about an hour and a half ago but that was somebody bumped into, i’ve been at a semester here i have to wrap up i gotta get my grades in for the fall for the kids took my courses and now i’m working on she’ll buy for next semester so, yeah i don’t have anything scheduled i did a bunch they were fine but for me it’s just all about talking to people like you i think that’s i think that’s, more fun than going out and sitting in a book store somewhere and look for for letting me come on and and if people can’t get the book and claim press dot com ii be very grateful us and, stop nigger to have you here yeah if you’re ever in nashville just let me know i’d like to meet you personally and to dinner or something else. I’m in i’m long over due to reconnect with my friend me check out the mouse, i’m teaching i went to under grad to go she was in graduate school i was under grad when we used to hang out in college and so we we got to be close again when i lived there and it would be good to see her again to so i am the duke. Of course i will park near my daughter again, the voice of the tennessee titans yeah there’s lots of reasons and bob i would love to do that too what will go will go hangout somewhere problems or maybe we can go to or if you’re not opposed to it maybe we can go do a ghost hunting tour or something. Yeah not opposed anything be fun there’s i’m sure there’s good ones around and i and you know the better one so thanks thanks for that thought and the be fun. Okay and we can record it we can do a impala and bobbing up no more power. No pain but the delay the right behind you win slight you go first a and of anything i hope so many i’m sure you’ll be used. Far behind me who, i’ll be broadcasting i’ll be talking about what’s happening well i don’t know what this creature is where it’s got all the bulbs put right now and will be right back after this old down the street gonna mall better run, i will talk to you soon thank you so much for letting you down and what is in german was the grandpa net and wall a great time we’re there together. Hope you enjoyed it just as much as i held. If your interested in his boat go to the claim press dot com or mr is matters dot com slash like night. Well folks until the next time we don’t come back together again with you all come in and parallel. Music.